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Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=40319		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  asticea [ Sat May 11, 2013 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
i whant your opinion on a qestion that i don't know the answer. does the bolt on joint on an acoustic guitar affects the sound quality of it or not?. some say that it will some say that not. so I want is your opinion from your expirience? thanks
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat May 11, 2013 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I doubt that anyone could identify a Guitar by the type of Neck joint. Full stop.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sat May 11, 2013 6:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
You will not hear someone say"I will not buy a guitar with a dovetail neck"but you well hear them say that will not buy a bolt on.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat May 11, 2013 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
On my first 17 guitars I used dovetail neck joints but decided to try a couple bolt on necks and as already stated there is no real sound difference. The dovetail takes a lot more skill to get right but is not hard to do, I spent a lot of time setting my first few necks but can now get one set in a reasonable amount of time. The bolt on I used on my Ziricote 12 fret 00 is totally removable with 2 bolts in the heel and 2 into the fretboard extension, and the one on the Ziricote OM has a glued on fingerboard but bolts in the heel.

What will I use, any of the 3 styles depending on what the customer prefers, but for myself it will be dovetail.

Fred
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat May 11, 2013 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I kinda like dovetail because it's simple, doesn't add a whole lot of weight, and it works. Sure it's a lot of trouble to reset compared to bolt on but I don't have the fancy schmacy CNC routers/bridgeport mills to do the total bolt on thing, it requires cuts that can only be done with a router bit that's longer than anything that's available (to be able to machine the drop off and the little wooden extension like a Taylor neck) and it just looks like the whole thing requires computer precision. Plus I am not sure if inserts have as much holding power as I think, and just about all the dovetailed guitars I've seen have very solid connection, assuming they have been properly fitted. Some of the lower end Martin with bolt on necks had trouble with the bolts coming loose, leading to customer complaint.
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Sat May 11, 2013 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I bolt on a dovetail and glue down the fingerboard extension.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat May 11, 2013 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Bolting on a dovetail is actually pulling the joint apart in the wrong direction.

From an engineering standpoint
the dovetail is the only joint that can be self sustaining . I have seen them assembled dry and strung to tension. The force applied will actual work with the joint to make it tighter

Bolt on will require a mechanical fastener
A glued bolt on has the glue in shear load and increases the chance of failure. Bolts will at some time need to be retightened

Still the fact remains
Once the neck is attached and is designed to carry the load of the strings , there is no tonal difference. The only time you may hear a difference is when the neck block shrinks or the bolts become loose.

I will admit I am a dovetail traditionalist but I can see where a bolt on does work. I agree that while there is no difference tonally there is often an inferred relationship by the consumer that a dovetail is better . I agree to what Brian states in the guitar shows I go to I do hear people say that they prefer dovetails.
Learning a dovetail is not hard , after all when you think of it ,you still have to set the neck to the proper angle and center line , the only adjustment difference is the attachment method. Go with what gives you the best results.

beehive
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Spanish heel, bolt on adjustable, dovetail, Violin style mortice joint. For some odd reason I like to do the dovetail joint and using hand tools. I actually enjoy fitting it. It's not really any more difficult than the others once you have done it a few times. It can be pretty quick as well. Don't forget that the male part only requires 4 cuts with a handsaw, the female 2 cuts.
I also make things slightly easier for any future Neck removal by pre drilling the steam holes. Saves anyone who is in doubt over their exact position. I've often thought of having the fretboard cut through at the 13th (15th) fret. That would mean that you would only have to free the fretboard between the Neck joint and the next fret up. Don't know how much of an advantage that would be though, considering that a Neck reset is only done every couple of decades or so.
Author:  LarryH [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I've used a bolt on with M&T for my first 5 then switched to a bolt on butt joint and will continue to use that from now on. So easy to measure, set and floss. How could I (or anyone) possibly know whether the guitar with a bolt on butt joint would have sounded better or worse with a dove tail? Or M&T?

As always in guitar building, too many variables to make any such claim. I wonder why the topic of tone and neck joint style still comes up at all?
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I think it may have something to do with Martin. When Martin started using a M&T neck , they also used a different bracing scheme. The sound difference was often equated to the neck joint not the bracing.
Having been involved in these discussions on the UMGF , often it was the misinformed trying to teach the educated. I like to be proved wrong , that way I learn something , others never allow a fact to sway an opinion.
Author:  George L [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I am highly skeptical of claims that neck joints can be detected sonically. I know for sure that I can't hear anything different.

I've built with both. As a relative beginner, I prefer the bolt on method as it allows me to finesse the neck angle and set up after the guitar has been strung up and played for a while. I think this is helping me gain a greater understanding of these procedures. As John noted above, a person should be able to do this with a dovetail as well. I'm just not confident enough in my joint fitting skills to give it a try.
Author:  PeterF [ Sat May 11, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Marketing hype like this doesn't help dispel the myth either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mbfd7OM ... e=youtu.be
duh
Author:  Evilfrog [ Sat May 11, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Of course it affects the sound. How can it not? It's part of the guitar....

I haven't been able to hear a difference, I doubt if there is any human who can hear the difference. And while it is quite possible that the difference is measurable by some tool that we have, I doubt it's a big enough difference that you'll be able to eliminate other factors when trying to determine if there is a difference. So as two identical guitars save for the neck joint, will still be made out of different pieces of wood.

So um, learn both and do what works best for you?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat May 11, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I have concerns about the long term viability of bolt on mortise and tenon or butt joints... what if the neck block shrinks over time and the bolt becomes loose? To a customer (who doesn't know anything about woodworking) that causes them to question the quality of the instrument. In theory a dovetail joint would never come loose unless the glue fails.
Author:  the Padma [ Sat May 11, 2013 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Dove tails...ya sure, but sorry duders...me years donotta ear da difference, they take longer to makes and neck resets aren't cheap... so...pfft

But you purists can call them Flower if you like.

bliss
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat May 11, 2013 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I went from dovetail to double m&t to glued extension/butt joint. I like the butt joint for simplicity and future friendliness. Once you have your jigs set up, dovetails are a cinch and actually faster than other joints, which is probably why they were adopted by Martin. I could care bupkis for the few grams a mechanical joint adds to the non tone zone, and would have to see some compelling evidence to switch back. But, to answer your question, I really don't feel that it make a difference in tone. And if it does, it's obviously for the better, cause my guitars are sounding way better these days than back when I was using dovetails...
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat May 11, 2013 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I agree that the neck joint doesn't make a difference in tone and chances are , you are making a better guitar now Meddling than you did then.

I have seen Wayne Henderson's dovetail methodology , and it is simple and is as accurate a way to make a dovetail. Those that switched did so because they couldn't master a dovetail. If you are jigging up to make a neck joint , the joint is only as good as the jig , dovetail bolt on or butt.
I will stand by my original statement that the dovetail is the only joint that can stand alone without glue or a mechanical fastener.

Also there are 2 types of bole on ,. a true bolt on that isn't glued and one that is.

In either case at some point the mechanical fastener will have to be adjusted , and I do agree it is often as simple as a twist of the wrist.

On guitar 157
all but 2 are dovetailed.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat May 11, 2013 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I was totally being tongue in cheek.
Gore/Gilet made my guitars better, not the change in neck joint....

I agree that a dovetail is the only joint that relies on glue alone, but I don't in any way see that as being an advantage, and indeed is why dovetail resets cost so much money to have done.

As for all-bolt-on necks (tongue included) I reluctantly abandoned that as I found the sheer strength of the tongue to be very useful in keeping things stable. On the double m&t joints I did, I found very high action on their three month check ups, sometime even needing a slight reset. Unfortunately a lot of players are unaware of the mechanics of the instrument, and only experience a loss of enjoyment without knowing why. So I compromise with a bolt on heel, glued tongue. I'm sure there's room for improvement in the design. I've been toying with the idea of a set screw through the utb butting against the tongue tenon, but I'm too busy to stop for r&d right now....
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat May 11, 2013 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Oh, and I mastered the dovetail totally. The number I've fit is in the thousands. I abandoned it for future friendliness primarily. I don't really feel that a dovetail is of service to anyone and guarantees a costly repair at some point in the owners life. Not trying to knock what you're doing John, just explaining why I left it behind....
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat May 11, 2013 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
Oops, misread your post. If a dovetail can stand without glue, why is it glued?
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Sat May 11, 2013 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I love a light guitar. A little here and a little there and a little off the neck joint and you can shave a pound off the weight of the guitar. So plus one for the dovetail.
Second is that the dovetail is a chance for the builder to demonstrate his skill and so a selling point as the public prefers that.
Third the claim that the MT/butt is better due to future work is only an excuse because only Martins and Gibsons will be held on to long enough to need a neck reset. All the other brands/builders guitars will be discarded when they cease to function.
The plus for MT/butt is that it is faster and easier. Thats good for the builder only.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat May 11, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
meddlingfool wrote:
Oops, misread your post. If a dovetail can stand without glue, why is it glued?



Probably for the exact same reason why nearly all makers glue the sides into a Spanish slipper foot. It's absolutely unnecessary but it gives them a feeling of security. Come to think of it there's probably a way to do a dovetail that would be relatively quick and painless to reset. It would be an interesting test to set up a glueless dovetail neck and subject it to very high string tension over 6 months or so. Get an old beater and refine the dovetail joint.
Author:  PeterF [ Sat May 11, 2013 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
itswednesday14 wrote:
Second is that the dovetail is a chance for the builder to demonstrate his skill and so a selling point as the public prefers that.

How can it be a demonstration of skill when no one can see it except the repair person 30 years down the road?
itswednesday14 wrote:
Third the claim that the MT/butt is better due to future work is only an excuse because only Martins and Gibsons will be held on to long enough to need a neck reset. All the other brands/builders guitars will be discarded when they cease to function.

What?? eek
itswednesday14 wrote:
The plus for MT/butt is that it is faster and easier. Thats good for the builder only.

And for the customer. Time=money
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat May 11, 2013 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I believe Micheal Gurian made pinned glueless dovetail joints, as well as others.

Now that I know that all my guitars are going to be discarded, I'm going to put a lot less effort into them... :?

Anyway, sorry for the digression, and back to the actual topic at hand.

The general consensus is that, no, the type of neck joint does not affect tone in any identifiable way...
Author:  FishtownMike [ Sat May 11, 2013 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bolt-on or dovetail joint ?
I think both are equal when it comes to sound. I say learn both techniques since this gives you more options as a builder. Some players may only want dovetails and some may want bolts. If you just do bolt ons or dovetails and a player insist the other you won't have to recommend him to someone else....Mike
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